philippos42 (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
philippos42) wrote2011-01-24 09:08 pm
philippos42) wrote2011-01-24 09:08 pm
But that's how I build characters!
My previous post got rambly & failed to hit the point I wanted to make (this one wanders a bit too), but what started it was that this (which I don't necessary lack sympathy for) was triggered by this, which seemed entirely appropriate to me when I'd seen it earlier.
I was bemused that the macro would inspire someone would write a big long post, defending his opinion that, [um, wait, I should read the whole post, what did he say?]
But making me, or Joven, or Greg Rucka, write a kick-ass gay hero, is not what was asked. Even if none of us are good at it doesn't mean no one would be. So why does Joven sound so offended?
What the [Obscene Epithet of Your Choice].
OK, wait, that's just silly. I'm a big giant Chris Claremont fan from childhood, one, & two, as a big giant fan of fair-play mysteries, I really believe that Chekhov Was Wrong About the Gun. Tracts can be stripped down, but long-form or serialized stories are just plain better with those "extraneous" elements that don't end up in the main plotline. Red herrings, guns that are not fired, implications of stories untold, yadda yadda.
What this means is that characters can have arbitrary attributes that you may or may not pick up later. In a shared universe, other writers may or may not pick up on them later. Northstar could, theoretically, have turned straight. Renee Montoya could, & did, get re-imagined as a lesbian. But if the seed of a later characterization is there, that means it can be used--expanded upon without that revision.
When I was a kid, recurring X-Men antagonists Mystique & Destiny were a lesbian couple. (Sort of. Mystique may have been transgender in some odd way.) It wasn't a major plot point, most stories would have worked exactly the same if Irene had been Raven's mom, or her Heterosexual Life Partner, instead of her lover. Once in a while, it came up, but the major story-making relationship for Mystique was with foster daughter (& series protagonist) Rogue. Get that? It wasn't important to the characters. Mystique was a militant, then a government agent, always a mother, & oh, yeah, off to the side, she's got a non-standard sex life, nunya bizness, moving on.
I don't really want a quota that 10% of active protagonists be gay or lesbian. Certainly not if the gay guys are all stereotypical camp gays. But would that be so much worse than a line where all the characters use the same basic character tropes? I'm not sure. Don't want to have to compare those two outcomes, because we can do better.
Yes, in fact I would create a Gay Action Hero in the same way one might create a kick-ass black martial artist (like these guys) or a California blonde who's really the child of extraterrestrials (like these ladies), or a tiny Asian woman who is sponsored by Batman (like these two)--because that mix of attributes is interesting. Gives a different hook. We really do build some characters from their sex & ethnic background. And creating a mix of characters with different backgrounds, this is what some writers try to do in general. Even Greg Rucka doesn't write quite all his characters as self-loathing lesbian or bi women. Really.
Would Gay Action Hero succeed as a mainstream headliner? Well, whatever smack I talk about Wildstorm, truth is, it substantially did once.
I was bemused that the macro would inspire someone would write a big long post, defending his opinion that, [um, wait, I should read the whole post, what did he say?]
What I’m really trying to say is I don’t think it’s fair to pressure a publisher or a writer to create a “kick ass gay male superhero” just for the sake of having one.I can accept that Joven Tolentino is not the guy to write a kick-ass gay action hero, that he would make a hash of it. I'm not sure I'm the guy either. Certainly there are some kinds of characters I don't feel qualified to write well. And there aspects of some characters I would downplay as out of my expertise as a writer; yes, just like Chuck Dixon not wanting to spend much time on Midnighter's marriage. Not that I wouldn't be willing to try writing what I think a kick-ass gay hero would be like, just that I might not do so well at it, & people would mock my awkward attempts at writing a gay man.
But making me, or Joven, or Greg Rucka, write a kick-ass gay hero, is not what was asked. Even if none of us are good at it doesn't mean no one would be. So why does Joven sound so offended?
Using myself as an example, I wouldn’t write a LGBT character unless their orientation is wholly, completely, 100% pertinent to the story in which they take part in.
What the [Obscene Epithet of Your Choice].
OK, wait, that's just silly. I'm a big giant Chris Claremont fan from childhood, one, & two, as a big giant fan of fair-play mysteries, I really believe that Chekhov Was Wrong About the Gun. Tracts can be stripped down, but long-form or serialized stories are just plain better with those "extraneous" elements that don't end up in the main plotline. Red herrings, guns that are not fired, implications of stories untold, yadda yadda.
What this means is that characters can have arbitrary attributes that you may or may not pick up later. In a shared universe, other writers may or may not pick up on them later. Northstar could, theoretically, have turned straight. Renee Montoya could, & did, get re-imagined as a lesbian. But if the seed of a later characterization is there, that means it can be used--expanded upon without that revision.
When I was a kid, recurring X-Men antagonists Mystique & Destiny were a lesbian couple. (Sort of. Mystique may have been transgender in some odd way.) It wasn't a major plot point, most stories would have worked exactly the same if Irene had been Raven's mom, or her Heterosexual Life Partner, instead of her lover. Once in a while, it came up, but the major story-making relationship for Mystique was with foster daughter (& series protagonist) Rogue. Get that? It wasn't important to the characters. Mystique was a militant, then a government agent, always a mother, & oh, yeah, off to the side, she's got a non-standard sex life, nunya bizness, moving on.
I don't really want a quota that 10% of active protagonists be gay or lesbian. Certainly not if the gay guys are all stereotypical camp gays. But would that be so much worse than a line where all the characters use the same basic character tropes? I'm not sure. Don't want to have to compare those two outcomes, because we can do better.
Yes, in fact I would create a Gay Action Hero in the same way one might create a kick-ass black martial artist (like these guys) or a California blonde who's really the child of extraterrestrials (like these ladies), or a tiny Asian woman who is sponsored by Batman (like these two)--because that mix of attributes is interesting. Gives a different hook. We really do build some characters from their sex & ethnic background. And creating a mix of characters with different backgrounds, this is what some writers try to do in general. Even Greg Rucka doesn't write quite all his characters as self-loathing lesbian or bi women. Really.
Would Gay Action Hero succeed as a mainstream headliner? Well, whatever smack I talk about Wildstorm, truth is, it substantially did once.